New content?
By now, everyone knows about the CLIQUE. Basically, it started as a group of people that liked to play Marathon. Because they weren’t completely satisfied with what they had, they started making new things and contributing to the community. Whether it was new maps, new game types, new scenarios, or whatever, they took it upon themselves to do whatever they could to make Marathon more fun to them. But now, several years have passed since the CLIQUE formed. So here’s my question, why has no new group surfaced?
There is no longer a bunch of new content being created for alephone, and that can’t be blamed on the lack of people playing the game. If we compare how many new files per month are now posted to Simplici7y, to how many were posted on Fileball per month a couple years ago, it has gone way down. But, the metastalker stats show that the number of games played per month is still going strong. So, where is the new content? Sure, we’ve had a few new things lately, Lua visual mode, some new maps by Ryoko, new gametypes, but those were all done by CLIQUE. Out of all the people playing on the metaserver today, why hasn’t a group of the less annoying people gotten together and started creating their own stuff? That is exactly how the CLIQUE formed in the first place. None of us knew each other before joining the AIM room to play games, and we formed a group because so many other people in the AIM room were annoying, or didn’t stick around very long. The metaserver today has the same problems the old AIM room had, and a minority of competent people still play games, so the situation seems exactly the same.
The major motivation for creating content is that you get to play maps, game types or whatever that you created yourself. Sick of the same old maps? Bad maps? Create your own! When I started playing alephone online, infinity stock maps were hosted more than anything else. They were really not very good, so better maps were created. What is so different now? Looking at the list of people that host the most these days, almost none of them make maps. This seems very strange to me.
Irons and I had a discussion about this a few days ago, and we threw out some ideas as to why this might be. Is it possible that there are enough good maps available these days, that we just don’t need any more? There are probably 5 or so high quality map packs out there that didn’t exist when I started playing. But it is just my opinion that these maps are good. It seems like a person just joining the community might have their own opinions about what is good, and then why wouldn’t they want to create their own maps to go along with that? The opinions of CLIQUE, as influential as they are, might suffocate newcomers’ desire to be creative, or maybe it’s just that the members of the CLIQUE are still active enough that no new people need to start making content. This may be true; Ryoko has been updating his Paradise Lost pack with new maps lately, and I released a few Lua game types. Even so, let’s face it: everyone likes to play his own stuff. Back when Irons was mapping, he’d host his own levels all the time. When Red Spectrum still needed playtesting and was not yet as widely-revered, Ryoko hosted it all the time. Mappers have always liked to show off their efforts, and that just doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.
Maybe there is a new group of people making content that I’m not aware of. I consider $lave to be sort of a “new generation” player that is making good stuff, but it seems like there should be more “new generation” players by now. Again, the presence of the CLIQUE might have affected events, $lave feeling that he is overshadowed by or on the periphery of the CLIQUE, and so he sees no point in breaking away from the established order. There’s a certain awareness in the Marathon community now that wasn’t yet established in the AIM chatroom days: Pfhorums and metaserver did not catch on until after the seeds of CLIQUE had been sown. Ryoko, Irons, Treellama, and I had no sense of the orders that already were in place, or we ignored it altogether, jumping on Pfhorums instead of taking the old route of community through the Story Board.
Among the other things Irons and I discussed, one of the strongest points was that a new forum (and community) launched at the same time that CLIQUE was in its infancy. We wondered if a similar event might allow a new group space to grow on their own board. Again, there is a counter-example, INFINITYS. On the surface, INFINITYS looks like a breakaway community that wishes to redefine some segment of Marathon. Several things are preventing anyone taking INFINITYS seriously (not the least of which is the higher-quality service provided by F.B.O. and Pfhorums), but one must remember that the creator of INFINITYS was banned from another community, unlike Appleswitch and the CLIQUE.
I know this blog doesn’t provide much opportunity for discussion, but I would really like to hear some thoughts on why this might be. If that doesn’t happen, I at least got to rant for a while.
Syringe Guy by steve — September 21, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
The reason that a new group of people hasn’t emerged to contribute new content to the game is a direct result of the behavior of the aptly-named “CLIQUE”.
The CLIQUE jokes are so funny because they are, for the most part, all true. There is a central group of experienced community members who dictate marathon policy and they are able to do this for three reasons:
1. They have been around the longest
2. They have contributed the most original material to the community
3. They are the best players.
Instead of using this position of privilege to support and encourage new players and mappers, they squelch the majority of new ideas, opinions, and creations offered by the next ‘generation’ and they do so with considerable and relentless venom.
Good mappers and players are not born. Like any other skill or craft there is a learning curve and, from my optic, most new community members do not pursue any sort of mastery of mapping and/or gameplay because when they do, they are consistently met with harsh criticism that is rarely constructive and often deteriorates into simple mockery. If you want more out of new players, help them along this learning curve instead of exploiting their vulnerability and using them as target practice in the pfhorums.
And while I recognize that plenty of advice is dispensed on the pfhorums with regard to strategy and mapmaking, it is almost always offered with an extra helping of “CLIQUE” attitude which inspires most of us to simply stop asking. People are abused so early and often that there is little incentive to make good maps and become competitive players.
A wise man once wrote: “The opinions of CLIQUE, as influential as they are, might suffocate newcomers’ desire to be creative…”
I would challenge any CLIQUE member to take just one aspiring player or mapmaker under their wing for a few months and teach them what you know about the game. I imagine that the number of good players and creative maps would quickly begin to multiply.
You asked why there has not been a new generation of players and I believe the answer is that you have created an environment in which a new generation is unable to thrive.
Syringe Guy by irons — September 21, 2008 @ 1:48 pm
I’m afraid my reply isn’t going to be as coherent as your comment because I’m strapped for time.
This was actually the reason I came up with as well. I think, even since W’rk wrote this post, that we have mellowed out a little more. Some of the other CLIQUEmen seem entirely hostile to newbies; however, if you’d like to take me as an example (who wouldn’t?), I’ve previously tried encouraging various members of the Pfhorums in their efforts. The most prominent example is Axle Gear, whose Marathon C demo I thoroughly enjoyed, etc. etc. There are other instances, which may be too few for some; I even went out of my way once for Shadowbreaker and wrote a giant post in his project’s thread to help him with the intro screen and story. $lave and his Cosmic Clouds levels have achieved a good deal of CLIQUE acclaim. And so on.
I don’t think it’s necessary to take someone new under one’s wing; I’m almost certain that most of CLIQUE achieved such lofty status independently. Encouragement can go a long way. Sadly, it’s not so much hostility for most of CLIQUE now as it is apathy: W’rk and I are almost entirely inactive in Marathon now; Thermo and Ray never were active; Treellama is just trying to get Aleph One into better shape; Ryoko is becoming less and less involved even in the community. We don’t care much about what goes on now, and I think some people would do well to realize that most of our “power” is in their obedience to our silly mandates.
I might come back to this later. Anyway, thanks for posting, whoever you are. It’s nice to see some interaction from “outsiders.”
Syringe Guy by W'rkncacnter — September 21, 2008 @ 2:57 pm
Steve:
Two things determine whether or not we shoot down an idea (at least in my mind). Either the idea is completely terrible, or the person has been around for a while and it’s obvious they have no potential. In the first case, by shooting down a terrible idea, I’m doing exactly what you suggested; I’m helping them out. If they have potential, I’d rather see them work on something that isn’t quite so stupad. Sure, I could be nicer about how I tell them, but if they’re going to take criticism so hard that they stop trying, they’re not going to come up with anything good anyway.
If a person has been around for a long time and their work continues to suck, I will stop making any effort to help them. A lot of what you see on the pfhorums falls under this category. If you go back far enough, you can find people that got help from the CLIQUE even though they were brand new and hadn’t proven themselves yet. We could just tell they had potential to make great stuff. The problem is, no one like this has turned up lately.
Having said that, I think the answer to my question “Why aren’t there other groups like the CLIQUE forming?” is: there are. Just recently I became aware of a new group that seems to be forming in the same way as our CLIQUE. While this group isn’t well defined yet (and maybe it’s just a joke that won’t go anywhere), so far it seems to be made up of people the CLIQUE recognized as having potential. I’m actually planning on writing a new post about this.
Syringe Guy by steve — September 22, 2008 @ 7:56 am
I appreciate both of your replies. I would like to briefly address W’rkncacnter’s follow-up thoughts. First, there is nothing wrong with ‘shooting down’ an idea and I agree that this is an essential part of the learning process for new players. My concern has always been the manner in which those ideas are discouraged and dismissed which I believe is the root of the problem you initially described. I think your notion of “if they take criticism so hard that they stop trying, they’re not going to come up with anything good anwyay” is bordering on ridiculous and this comment is emblematic of the negative attitude that the CLLQUE espouses. Based on your experience, I assume you are older than most of us and I know there are some players younger than I that may not be thick-skinned enough to handle this brand of criticism, particularly from a community ‘leader’.
With regard to Irons’ reply: I disagree with the thrust of Wrkncacnter’s argument but I must say that he does not seem at all apathetic, to his credit. That said, if your apathy extends to other community leaders like RyokoTK and Treellama, then I don’t there is much hope for the game. I agree that many of you established yourselves in this community without the kind of mentoring that I am suggesting but it also seems that you had the advantage of learning the ropes during the heyday of Aleph One: when online play became an option and the fan base from the late 90′s hadn’t completely dried up. I will also say that many of your efforts have raised the bar significantly in terms of mapping and gameplay and therefore it will be harder for your next generation to pass muster. If you “don’t care much about what goes on now”, then by all means: continue to snipe at newbies from the sidelines on the pfhorums. Of course, if you didn’t really care that much, then why are we having this discussion?
Syringe Guy by irons — September 22, 2008 @ 10:12 am
When I said we were mostly apathetic, it was true. Few of us even play anymore, only Ryoko creates levels now, and most scripts W’rk and I make are meant to be jokes. W’rk in particular has always had an on-again, off-again relationship to Marathon. He has a tough time caring about anything, really.
I don’t want to speak for all of us, even though CLIQUE is a hive mind; nevertheless, I think we’ve moved to the stage where the community itself is what is interesting and important to us (with Ryoko as a possible exception). This is one reason why JFO exists, and why we’re continuing the discussion with you. I sometimes tell others that the community is the “game” I play now. CLIQUE is probably the only thing keeping me as involved with the community as I am: the other members are intelligent enough to provide good interaction no matter what conditions are like on Pfhorums or other places.
As for raising the bar, some of our recent efforts have tried to raise the bar in another way. Thermo’s Smithy is nearing completion and Lua Visual Mode has already given many mappers the ability to get rid of the Forge limits that have hindered all of us at one time or another. When Smithy is done, it will be that much easier for people to make levels. I hope people take the opportunity to make some great things. I don’t know what to tell you, but I’m beginning to see signs of the nuCLIQUE W’rk mentioned above. I think we’ll eventually see guys like $lave taking the reins and doing quite well with them.
Syringe Guy by W'rkncacnter — September 22, 2008 @ 6:53 pm
“I think your notion of “if they take criticism so hard that they stop trying, they’re not going to come up with anything good anwyay” is bordering on ridiculous and this comment is emblematic of the negative attitude that the CLLQUE espouses.”
If someone makes a map that is completely terrible, I’m going to tell him that it sucks. If he asks why, it shows me he has potential and is willing to learn. In that case, I’ll gladly tell them what is wrong in the hopes that they’ll improve. On the other hand if they just whine about how I’m being mean and give up, that’s not someone I want to help anyway. Maybe that is ridiculous, but that’s the way it is.
I’ve been around this community long enough to recognize that the vast majority of people will never contribute anything to the community (other than actually playing games, which is something), but my original post was more about why there wasn’t some group, maybe 1%, that stood above the rest. Now I know that there may be, I just wasn’t
stalkinglooking hard enough.I’d like to say that I’m not always mean when someone does a terrible job with something. Take this post for example. Looking at the overhead, the map clearly sucks, but since he obviously doesn’t know how to map yet, I didn’t say anything mean. I’ll wait for him to call something good before I judge his abilities.
I don’t really know if you want to continue this conversation, but if you do, I’d be interested in seeing some of my posts that bother you the most. Maybe I can explain myself better with specific examples rather than trying to be general. If you want to drop it, that’s fine too.
Syringe Guy by steve — September 23, 2008 @ 8:23 am
Thank you again for your comments and I appreciate you (W’rkncacnter)giving me an example of you being helpful on the pfhorums. My point was, and is, that you seem to be concerned (or you were about a month ago) about the state and future of the game and you said yourself that CLIQUE ‘influence’ (a euphemism) might be smothering creativity from newer members. I tried to flesh that out a bit in my original post without being critical of the CLIQUE (this word has deftly slipped its way into my lexicon!) My comments were just an observation of your general attitudes towards most players– they were not meant to be a condemnation. I know that you and other ranking members of the marathon elite are not exclusively cruel and there is certainly evidence to support that. However, I have been around a long time and the fact is that you guys are simply not very nice to people and that is indisputable. Again, it is your prerogative and does not require any explanation, but it is true. Whether it is due to your apathy, or perhaps advancing age, your tolerance for inexperience is incredibly low and I agree that it stifles and discourages less experienced players.
Anyway, perhaps I don’t have anything else to add to this conversation that is useful. I love the game and I enjoy talking about it, in any format. You both seem very bright (I think Irons might possess a double-scoop of gray matter) and I have looked forward to both of your replies. I also find a lot of the content on this website terribly amusing even though I imagine these are mostly inside jokes between the two of you, if you are in fact two people.
Enjoy your Tuesday. We’ll talk more.
Syringe Guy by steve — October 15, 2008 @ 10:14 am
I was just reading the irc log and I must say: without naming names, It seems you don’t have much faith in your selectee(s) for the ‘next generation’ of the game.
Syringe Guy by W'rkncacnter — October 15, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
First of all, we didn’t select them, and second, you’re right. We don’t have that much faith in them. CLIQUE doesn’t have to have faith in CLIQUE: next generation (btw, I’m using this ridiculous terminology because it’s easy and you know what I’m talking about), but that doesn’t stop them from being a group of people (which at this point is looking like just 2 people) that seem to get along and create new content.
Summary: I’m not sure what the point was of your last comment.
Syringe Guy by irons — October 15, 2008 @ 4:33 pm
I think he was hinting to us how much he likes the unpublication game. Steve, realize too that a lot of CLIQUE gives $lave a hard time for some reason, without necessarily meaning it. I try not to, but maybe I do at times.
Syringe Guy by steve — October 15, 2008 @ 10:35 pm
In your earlier comments, you bring $lave up a number of times as a promising community member worthy of some praise. You can understand that I was a bit shocked when I read the IRC log and the point of my last comment was to highlight this apparent contradiction. W’rk: I have a lot of trouble believing that you try not to give $lave a hard time.
Syringe Guy by W'rkncacnter — October 15, 2008 @ 11:21 pm
He is the most promising member of the community of the “new generation” in my opinion, but that’s not saying much. I think I have at least a little bit of faith in him, but I can’t speak for the rest of the CLIQUE. Yes, I give him a hard time, when did I say otherwise? I give people a hard time if I think they have some potential, but aren’t quite “there” yet. Hell, I give most of the people in the CLIQUE a hard time as well. That’s just what I do. I usually completely ignore people I have no interest in, or in other cases, the person is really fun to annoy (macsforever), so I’m a total jackass to them. Again, I’d like some specifics as to what I said that is bothering you. If you’re referring to how we like to kick him out of the room, he’s not like you and understands that that has no real meaning. We kick people from the channel all the time, and a lot of times for no reason. That’s just how it is. I don’t have much respect for people that get kicked and then get pissed off. I’d understand if we were kicking people off the pfhorums or something the whole community takes part in, but this is #alephone. If you’re not there about alephone trouble, you better be a fun person to talk to, otherwise WTF are you doing there. $lave is an example of someone that realizes how #alephone works and that it is all in good fun, and to me that sets him above most people in this community.
Syringe Guy by steve — October 16, 2008 @ 6:24 am
So if I understand correctly, you most respect people who absorb abuse from ranking community members and get kicked numerous times from #alelphone, and then come back for more without complaining about it. Interesting. I imagine your defense would be that everyone on #alephone takes abuse and gets kicked but we all know that you treat some people differently than others which is still my main point.
Syringe Guy by W'rkncacnter — October 16, 2008 @ 10:13 am
I don’t see getting kicked as being abuse. It’s more of a test to see if the people have a sense of humor. Some people do, most people don’t. I treat some people differently than others? That’s deep. Also, water is wet.
I notice you still didn’t get specific about where I’m being abusive, so it’s hard to know what we’re even talking about. Surely this isn’t about Slave’s bad lua scripts. Slave would be the first person to tell you that those scripts sucked, anyway.
Syringe Guy by irons — October 16, 2008 @ 10:20 am
When it comes to kicking—and I know you have a history of being kicked from #alephone, so it’s hard to view from the kicking end—you must realize that to us a kick is just another gesture, similar to a /me action. I used to get kicked fairly often, but I asked the ops to avoid kicking me so the log would be uninterrupted.
I agree that your case got kind of ridiculous, especially because you started off in the channel as an OK guy. I do think everyone over-reacted when you complained about #alephone (“This place is ridiculous. Why even mention it in the FAQ?” and so on); Ryoko’s reaction/explanation was kind of dumb—
—But we’re talking about Ryoko here. He’s notoriously abrasive.
I’m not going to sugar-coat it: when you said “you most respect people who absorb abuse from ranking community members and get kicked numerous times from #alelphone [sic], and then come back for more without complaining about it,” you were basically right. It’s how the channel works, and for that reason I really hated the channel at times. There was one guy in particular, silvrmane, with whom I argued every time we talked at the same time. I eventually learned to shut up entirely when he was around, because I knew my reactions to him were most of the problem. Last time I loched, I thought hard about #alephone before coming back to it, finally understanding that I was taking the whole experience too seriously.
If you ever come back, and I hope you do, just take it easy for a while. Non-peak hours (generally 12:00–18:00 and 01:00 EST) might be a good way to talk to a couple of random people without worrying about some of the others. Good luck.
Syringe Guy by W'rkncacnter — October 16, 2008 @ 10:36 am
Here’s the other thing about #alephone. Your first impression is very important. I don’t have the logs in front of me right now, but “steve” made some pretty bad first impressions, so that’s where he went wrong. Protip: You don’t want to come into the channel with a name like mib_23ab03c and start saying stuff like “lol super gay”. It was crap like that that got you kicked in the first place, and then when you started coming in to the room to bitch about us, our impression of you went down even more.
On the off chance I’m mixing people up here, I’ll correct myself later. As I said, I don’t have the logs in front of me at the moment.
Syringe Guy by steve — October 16, 2008 @ 11:06 am
No. You’re not mixing people up. I was columbia mibbit guy and I made a serious error in my efforts to get onto the alephone channel that disrupted another random channel which in turn brought an angry messenger to #alephone. That said, if I remember correctly (and I admit this may be skewed– I don’t have any logs), I spent my first day on the channel trying to talk about a new map I had just played (fatal tragedy) which I erroneously referred to as “final tragedy”. Things deteriorated later on followed by lots of kicking (of me) and some less than friendly words back and forth, of which I am as guilty as all other parties. If all of that rancor stemmed purely from my failed attempts to get into the chat room, then I am at fault, and was doomed before I even got there.
I don’t have any interest in coming back to #alephone but I appreciate your trying to smooth the way for a return. I honestly did not log on there to argue with people and was hoping to chat about the game. Things didn’t go well, I was asked not to return, and I respect that request.
This isn’t (or at least wasn’t originally) about me, though. I didn’t try to get on the IRC channel until after contributing to JFO.
Wrk: “ugh, Slave”; “he has no good ideas” (or words to that effect), and “Marathon is dead” “because of Slave” were the comments to which I was referring. I don’t think he was there to defend himself at the time. I appreciate that there may be nuances to your relationship to which I am not privy, but I wrote my recent comment after reading these.
Hope that helps. Thank you both for the replies/input.
Syringe Guy by W'rkncacnter — October 16, 2008 @ 11:44 am
Ok, thanks. Now I know what we’re talking about. When I said $lave didn’t have any good ideas, I was talking about just his ideas for lua scripts. And if you actually listen to the description of his scripts, I’d be very surprised if you didn’t agree with me. That doesn’t mean I don’t think he’ll eventually come up with some ideas. I hope he does. As far as “Marathon is dead”, that’s just another CLIQUE joke based on stupid posts on the story forum. “Marathon is dead because of Slave” is a ridiculous comment, and I would have thought it was obvious that was a joke. That’s similar to saying “RyokoTK is single-handedly ruining the community.” However, I wasn’t the one that said “because of slave”, so I can’t give a full explanation of what was meant, but I can tell you that’s not at all my opinion.
I think you have to realize that 95% of everything said in alephone is some sort of joke. Outsiders do not get the jokes, and that’s why they don’t fit in very well.
Syringe Guy by steve — October 16, 2008 @ 12:06 pm
Ok. fair enough. It seems I took those comments (some of which are not even yours) out of context.
I also agree that “95% of everything said in alephone is some sort of joke”. I hope so. This is still a game after all.
I guess my question is whether your closed circle is really interested in any outside participation at all? My observation is that you don’t put a lot of stock in the majority of outside thoughts/contributions and the #alephone channel is clearly not a welcoming place. (by your own admissions). My opinion has always been that outsiders are utilized as fodder for the self-perpetuating CLIQUE, which was reinforced by Irons’ explanation that the community itself was at the core of his (and perhaps many of your) continuing interest in Marathon.
I was compelled to write in to JFO by your initial “rant” about new content which forced me rethink my understanding of your motivations. Everything I have seen subsequently has correlated with my original views.
In short: I have spent a lot of time trying to answer a question that I don’t think anyone actually cares about. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Syringe Guy by W'rkncacnter — October 16, 2008 @ 12:23 pm
I’d really like some new people in #alephone, but I’d much rather refuse all new people than have it return to the state of the old AIM room. Basically, we’ll accept new people, but only if we like them. It’s too hard to define someone that we like, but I can tell you we’ve accepted completely new people before. We don’t look at “Oh, this person has been in the community a long time, so they’re in”, we just judge based on personality. If we don’t seem to accept any new people, it’s because none of these new people have a personality compatible with the other people in #alephone.
#alephone’s only real purpose is to help people that are having problems with alephone. When someone comes in with a problem, we are usually pretty helpful. #alephone just happened to turn into a CLIQUE hangout as well. There’s nothing stopping anyone from creating a new room with a more friendly atmosphere for general marathon discussion, but #alephone is not what you’re looking for.
Syringe Guy by steve — October 16, 2008 @ 12:32 pm
that all makes perfect sense. thanks, wrk.
I also just saw THIS and it makes everything clear. I can’t really offer much more than this. This has, for the most part, been a wonderful discourse. Thank you both:
“Looking back at the community for the last few years, stupidity has always been at its core. People hosting and making shitty maps and other content, countless 12 year-olds posting whatever mindless crap they feel like on the pfhorums and the few community elites putting them in their place have always been what’s driven this community.
A month or two ago, Ryoko bashing was suddenly taken to a new level, and the idea of the CLIQUE formed. Anti-CLIQUE people whined for a while, and then left. Now, the pfhorums are left with noobs asking questions as always (and I feel that’s one of the main reasons this forum should exist, so I’m all for it), and people talking about new projects. A lot of the stupidity is gone, and in my mind, this is exactly what the pfhorums should be. However, as a CLIQUE member, I’ve gotten used to responding to stupid posts with sarcasm, and I actually enjoy doing it. With a lack of retards, the opportunities to do this have gone way down. I think I’d almost like to see some mix of annoying 12 year-olds and people that are assholes to them. This has always been what the marathon community has been about, and that must be why I’ve stuck around for so long.”
Syringe Guy by irons — October 16, 2008 @ 3:38 pm
Thanks for posting here. You’re free to comment on anything else! It was nice having a discussion outside the normal places.