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#a1 *AUDIO* *IMAGE* *LINK* *NM* *VIDEO* 4GET MARARTHON 8FTB AGM Aleph One BS Campaign Celebrities CLIQUE CLIQUE NOTES Co-Op Community Commentary Crude Drawings Declassified Documents ESB Fanfic Fat Sam Flame War Forbidden HFS Hotmodal House of Luck HR INFINITYS I WAS TOO LAZY TO PUT THIS IN A CATEGORY Jokes JUICE JUICEcast JUICEMAN LEET KREW Lists loch Logs Lua meta (meta is the best word ever) Misc. Categories Mnet Music News nits ONE WAY OSH PARADIGM SHIFT People Periodical Pfhorums Policy POTM qoou Serious SERVE MEAT Simplici7y Sites Spirit of the Age Stats Stories The Essentials Theory The Prisoner Typography VISUAL MODE Warhampster Where the Twist Flops अ
It took me long enough. Part of the issue I had was that I have my own domain now, and I was too lazy to move the IRC-related stuff to my new site. So here we go: this month’s stats are located right next to the all-time stats and everything else.
This transition also obviously indicates that the original spylog is now located at the new and protected irc.jonirons.net.
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Syringe Guy by W'rkncacnter — October 14, 2008 @ 10:27 am
You guys are assholes. Now I have to wait till I get home to see wtf is going on. Besides, the {@up} crap can’t look that good in the actual conversation.
Syringe Guy by irons — October 14, 2008 @ 10:43 am
Well, right now it’s mainly experimentation to perfect the “engine.” Nothing truly interesting has been said. I don’t intend to use unpublishing until I mass-unpub someone ({@up> nick}). I totally forgot that the IRC page has a loyal reader, though; sorry! Maybe I can make a super-secret spylog that does not follow unpub commands.
Syringe Guy by thermoplyae — October 14, 2008 @ 10:43 am
I think it’s kind of lame too, but since I just sit in the channel all day and do nothing else it doesn’t really affect me.
Syringe Guy by W'rkncacnter — October 14, 2008 @ 10:54 am
Well, honestly I don’t care too much about the spylog, but if this {@up} syntax gets annoying whne I’m actually in the room, I’ll just have to take care of that ;)
Syringe Guy by steve — October 31, 2008 @ 9:14 pm
Why is it that only certain people have access to the logs from #alephone and the metaserver? Do you have any proprietorship over either of these forums? It doesn’t seem right, but I thought I would ask since I don’t know much about it. Thanks.
Syringe Guy by irons — October 31, 2008 @ 10:04 pm
Whoever runs Freenode now might in theory own the material on #alephone, and Prplppleater owns meatserver or something. But when it comes to the logs, I think the person doing the logging is the proprietor. We can distribute (or not distribute) them as we please, and at the same time, others are free to make their own logs, doing as they please.
I’ll keep silent about the former IRC log for now (:D). As for W’rk’s meatserver log, he is the only person who can see it, because he never posts it except in the tiny bits he quotes here or on #alephone. From what I hear, it’s not that interesting anyway.
If you’re really worried, just start your own Bore* setup the way W’rk and I have.
Syringe Guy by wrkncacnter — October 31, 2008 @ 10:05 pm
Freenode doesn’t really like you posting logs, so that one is just for the few of us that actually like to see what we missed when we’re not actually in the chatroom. You’re supposed to get permission from everyone in the chat to be able to post logs. So, CLIQUE members give permission to post a log for other CLIQUE members, and that’s it.
As far as the metaserver, I’m the only one that is logging it, so why would other people have logs? I really don’t know what’s confusing you on this one.
Syringe Guy by steve — October 31, 2008 @ 10:45 pm
You’ve made it perfectly clear. Prplppleater is as close to an owner of the metaserver as you can get but, according to you, that doesn’t matter and anyone with the know-how can set up their own metaserver log.
And as far as #alephone goes, wrk is implying that he has permission from everyone that chats on that channel to log them but, of course, that isn’t true. So someone could also log #alephone. You’re just the only ones who have chosen to at this point and are therefore able to restrict access as you see fit.
Did I understand that correctly? If so, that answers my question. Thank you.
Syringe Guy by wrkncacnter — October 31, 2008 @ 10:51 pm
You don’t need permission to log anything, you need (really it’s not a rule, it’s a guideline) permission to publicly log them. Since there are only like 6 of us that actually talk in #alephone, it’s not hard to get permission from them for a private online log.
But that’s mostly how IRC works. I assume the vast majority of people in #alephone, or any other room, are logging the chat. So yes, if you wanted a copy of the logs for yourself, you could come in and log it. Same with the metaserver.
Syringe Guy by steve — October 31, 2008 @ 11:02 pm
But you don’t need permission to publicly log metaserver chat? As you have in the ‘Ray’ segment? It doesn’t bother me but I’m just trying to understand the rules and/or guidelines for this sort of thing.
I also think that you are glossing over the point that, although CLIQUE members comprise the majority of the chat on #alephone, you are logging many more than 6 of your friends. And though I believe that THEY may have given you permission, or at least it’s implied, but that everyone else (me for example) has not. And when you share that log with them, even only 6 others, isn’t that now considered a ‘public log’, at least as far as everyone else is concerned?
Syringe Guy by wrkncacnter — October 31, 2008 @ 11:14 pm
As far as I know, there are no rules for posting metaserver logs publicly. Mariusnet probably doesn’t consider it an issue at all, because who in their right mind even logs it?
It probably is still a public log, and I guess the 20 lines of your chat we don’t have permission for. This is why it’s a guideline and not a rule. We aren’t breaking any rules, and the only reason we aren’t posting the log to everyone is because, no other besides the 6 of us actually want to look at it. This way for the 20 lines of your posts for which we don’t have permission to post, only 6 of us can see it rather than everyone. It just minimizes the amount we are going outside the guidelines.
Now if you’re thinking “Hey, I want to look at it and I’m not one of those 6 people!”, then I think maybe you’re just posting to complain about something. If you really wanted to read the logs, you’d participate in the chat. Why should a completely random person have access to our conversations anyway? For example, I don’t frequent the #math room on Freenode, so why the hell should I have their logs?
Syringe Guy by irons — October 31, 2008 @ 11:29 pm
“You’re just the only ones who have chosen to at this point and are therefore able to restrict access as you see fit.”
This describes the situation. I started logging the channel because I didn’t want to miss out on stuff, and once I got boretower running 24/7, I thought maybe updating the log online would be a service to people who couldn’t get on #a1 during the day.
Syringe Guy by steve — October 31, 2008 @ 11:39 pm
Well, you’d probably be a bit confounded in the #math room, but that’s besides the point.
“Who in their right mind even logs it?” Well, you do. I’M asking about it, and you’ve already said that you assume the vast majority of people in #alephone or any other room are logging the chat, so there is clearly some sort of interest in logging chats besides your own.
You have answered my question about the rules/guidelines and also confirmed that you are not following them. I have no problems with that. I just wanted to know how things worked.
I am personally very curious about what goes on in the #alephone channel and I enjoyed reading the logs during the time they were available to everyone (which seems to be another infraction with regard to your guidelines). I also agree with your point that a completely random person shouldn’t have access to your conversations (although that’s what happened when the logs were public) but as you said: I chatted on #alephone, albeit briefly, and you and your friends are able to access those logs while I cannot. I am an extreme example since I don’t frequent IRC but I am still not a completely random person.
I am not asking for access and I am not complaining so there is no need to be defensive. I just wanted to know how the lines being drawn and by whom.
Syringe Guy by wrkncacnter — October 31, 2008 @ 11:48 pm
There are no lines. Whoever logs the chat can do whatever they want with them. We’ve chosen to do it this way. I did post the metaserver chat online for about 5 minutes before I was asked to take them down due to the fact that they are so terrible, so I know most people do not want to see them, and dislike the fact that they even exist. So I do think I’m the only one with an interest in having these logs, with the possible exception of you. And I’m sure spending 2 minutes looking at them would change your mind.
If you are so curious about what happens in #alephone, you should join and participate. Otherwise, to us, you are just a completely random person. Why should we provide a service to you or anyone else that doesn’t care enough to actually join the room?
Anyway, as far as breaking guidelines, we break pretty much everyone one on freenode’s list. Password protecting the logs is just a small step in the right direction ;)
Syringe Guy by steve — November 1, 2008 @ 12:06 am
Either you are missing the point or ignoring the point of my question. The fact is that a lot of people chat on #alephone AND the metaserver. A select few have access to those logs and the rest do not. I wanted to know why.
From what I gather, the answer is that you are the only ones who have taken the time/energy to set up the logs and can therefore distribute them any way you like.
So in the case of the metaserver which is not regulated, even by loose guidelines, anyone can set up a chatlog if they wish.
By that logic, since anyone can join #alephone, they can log that too and should really only consult other channel participants if they want to make the logs public.
Your next point was the most interesting, imo, and I’m summarizing: why should a relative outsider be privy to all the conversations on a certain channel? I know you were talking about providing me with a ‘service’, but I’m thinking more along the lines of additional chatlogs, not access to yours. But your insider/outsider distinction raises some questions. Even if just to set moral guidelines for logging chats, who is going to determine who is an insider and who is not. Again, I’m not a good example but I’m sure there are many that would fall into a grey area of chatting on #alephone but not having access to the logs.
Syringe Guy by wrkncacnter — November 1, 2008 @ 12:20 am
“A select few have access to those logs and the rest do not. I wanted to know why.”
Sorry, I guess I was trying to read more into what you were asking. To get a log, you have to join #alephone and set your client to log chats. Since you didn’t join and configure your client correctly, you don’t have the logs.
To have access to the online log, irons needs to give you the password.
Syringe Guy by steve — November 1, 2008 @ 12:26 am
I think I get it now. Thanks for the help.
Does your metaserver log keep track of the scores of games too? or just hosts/maps, etc?
Syringe Guy by wrkncacnter — November 1, 2008 @ 12:32 am
For the metaserver, I use 2 different things. MNetViewer logs all of the statistics about games and players. It does not have access to scores of the games. If these are the logs you’re referring to, they are not password protected, it’s at http://wrk.treellama.org/mnetviewer/. The program that collects these statistics is open source and is at http://sourceforge.net/projects/mnetviewer.
I just use alephone to log the actual metaserver chat. I just have the chat redirect to a file and add a time stamp.
Syringe Guy by thermoplyae — November 1, 2008 @ 10:54 am
We’ve actually had this discussion multiple times in the context of #math, since someone regularly gets the idea that being able to reread all those high school algebra questions would somehow be entertaining or productive and asks why we don’t host a publicly viewable log. The channel operators there (most notably _llll_, the rest of us don’t care nearly as much) are strict adherents to the Freenode guidelines, in part because we believe it’s a good way to run a more serious, more massive channel and in part because #math is far more high-profile than #alephone. It’s certainly important to make the distinction between a public and a private log, but I think you guys picked the wrong side above; a limited access log (in the sense that there’s a small, unchanging whitelist of people who can access it, not a blacklist who can’t) is still to my eyes a private log. The old log was borderline private (erring public) since Google never indexed it, and so it wasn’t entirely trivial to spy on the channel.
The reason for the rule (and I can’t remember if this came from the #math discussion or from Freenode’s page itself) is that public, permanent logs make people accountable for what they say, an unwise move in an otherwise transient medium like IRC. (Doubly so in a field like math, where success rests largely on convincing your peers that you’re not an idiot.) I find it funny that we make exceptions to this rule to post only the dumbest and most embarrassing sections of the logs to the Pfhorums, but, really, that fits the CLIQUE psychological profile pretty perfectly.